Hi, everybody. I am so excited about the guest today. We have the CEO and cofounder of Patreon. He is a filmmaker, a touring musician with Pomplamoose and Scary Pockets, the host of Digital Spaghetti and Dead Wax, Jack Conte. If you're unfamiliar with Patreon, it is a, incredible platform that enables creators to build, build a a membership by providing exclusive access to their content and building deeper, connections with their community. Patreon was founded on the belief that creators deserve to be compensated for the value that they provide to the world, and they have been very successful in that effort. The two hundred and fifty thousand creators on Patreon have earned over three point five billion dollars to date. And Jack, first of all, welcome. But Jack is a incredible leader for Patreon because he is a creator and, has helped that passion by being a creator has helped Patreon's mission of, putting the power dynamic back in the hands of creators, and enabling them to, to shift essentially the creator economy. If you don't know me, my name is Lauren Zoltek. I am a director of marketing at Storyblocks. Storyblocks is a stock media subscription service aimed at enabling creators and businesses to make better video content faster than ever. We do this by offering unlimited access to stock media library, plugins that that, integrate directly into your software, and, the best legal coverage in the industry. I'm also a podcast producer and Patreon creator for Exes and Nos with Shannon Beveridge. So, Jack, I am so excited to have you on today and ask you too many questions. We are gonna be digging into video podcasts, the pros and cons, best practices, as well as, opportunities that we see for brands and creators today. So before we jump in, a couple of quick sort of ground rules. You can submit your questions anytime, through the Q and A tab, but also feel free to submit them on the audience tab today. We're gonna try and get to some of the questions live as we're as we're having this conversation. And if you have time at the end, we'll also do some q and a, but feel free to ask directly an audience today. We will also, be recording this. So if you want to watch it again, missed a part, wanna share it with your friends, family, colleagues, you can do that. That will be available at storybox dot com slash resources after, the recording today. And we will, let's get started. So hi, Jack. I usually don't start with a, round of questions about the guest, but I felt like we kinda had to today. So it's such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for joining first of all. I'm psyched to be here. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Okay. So you've done a lot. You've played a lot of different roles. You've been, you know, the founder and CEO of Patreon, a musician, a creator yourself, a partner, so many things. I feel like it's hard to list them all. So how do you find balance in playing all of those different roles? I'm not sure I have found balance in playing all those different roles. Certainly doesn't feel balanced. Feels crazy. But I I don't know. I kinda like that. I like, doing a lot of things. I like being really busy and always having something that I'm working on. I like having a lot of projects. I I will just maybe just give a few tips because it is it is a lot of stuff, and somehow it's still somehow working. And so maybe, you know, whether or not it's balanced is is separate issue, but it's it's working. And so, yeah, maybe the like, a couple things on that. Like, first is, you know, the power of teams. Like, all the things that I do basically have amazing teams that are running everything. Right? Like, Patreon now at this point is, you know, four hundred teammates, four hundred plus who are running the company and doing an amazing job and, scary pockets. You know, my cofounder in that is is Ryan Pomplamoose. You know, my my, wife is is the, more wonderful, better voiced, more talented half of Pamplemousse. And so, you know, it works because of her. Digital Spaghetti, which is this talk show that I have, you know, that there's, like, the team at Patreon that produces that and makes that amazing and, you know, finds all the creators to bring in, and then I get to kinda sit down and do the fun part and talk to people. Dead wax is, you know, the collaboration with Brian. So teams kinda make the whole thing work. And maybe if there's, like, one skill I learned, you know, in my in my thirties that I I didn't really invest a lot into my twenties, like, how to work with and build teams. I feel like teams are kind of superheroes. They allow you to do a lot more than you otherwise would. Second, like, unlock for doing a lot of things has been batched production. I think a lot of creators under invest in batch production, but it works especially well with any sort of episodic media like podcasts or a talk show or something like that. Batch production is where instead of producing one thing every week and then always being on the hook for, like, crafting a new thing, every week. You you set aside one day a month, for example, to shoot four episodes, which is how we produce dead wax and it's how we produce, digital spaghetti. So, like, each of those things isn't like this ongoing thing that requires me to do it every week and every day. I do digital spaghetti once a month or once every two months, really. We do, like, one or two batch production days where we get, you know, a good four to five episodes, and then we release those one a week. Compliments has been doing the same for years, and Scary Pockets has been doing the same for years too. So batch production is like a huge, huge unlock. And, and then maybe just last thing is, like, prioritization. Like, at any given time, I have a list of, like, you know, twenty next tasks that are, like, the most important, things that I need to do. And so I I try to be really rigorous about making sure that I'm spending my time on the right stuff. I love all of those, and I'm, like, secretly trying to mentally record for myself because we are still doing the week to week production. And so, I think the goal is batched and and it's such a great tip. What made you jump into, like, hosting shows yourself? What what was, what's the story there? Well, I guess there's a couple couple things. One, it's probably not that I well well, so I love storytelling. I love understanding what makes a story work. I love understanding the components of what makes a great story, like the lighting and the, the storytelling, the editing, the scripting, how creators work. I'm sort of obsessed with creative process. I love learning about how people make something. And so many creators have completely unique, individual ways of making something. Some creators script everything upfront. Some creators hate scripting. They just go out with the camera and shoot. Some creators hate shooting. They leave shooting to the last, and they do everything else first. Like, it's crazy how many different types of creative processes there are. And, honestly, I think it kinda does two things for me. One, it makes me feel less weird about my own weird, gnarly, creative processes that don't make sense, but they're just how my brain works and so I wanna do it. But they also inspire me to try new types of creative processes, which outputs a different type of work and helps me break out of my own voice. One thing I'm always trying to do as a creator is make something I haven't made before. Like, I I'm I don't wanna just be chat GPT where I'm just outputting the same slop over and over again. Like, I wanna break out of my own barriers and make something new and interesting. And, and I wanna make something that surprises myself. And learning about other creators and their processes really helps me do that. So, like, that's why I started Digital Spaghetti. That's one of the reasons. It's like I love learning about that, you know, from creators. The second is it's good for Patreon to have a show where we're just meeting creators all the time and talking with creators about processes and putting out videos that get hundreds of thousands of views about these amazing creators. Like, that's good for Patreon because, you know, it helps position us as a creative brand that's out there and reach other creators and, helps attract us to, like, great people. It helps it helps us, like, partner with creators early on, in a process. Like, forget about launching on Patreon or using Patreon. Like, we just get to start building relationships with creators, you know, early on in their process of discovery, which is awesome for us. So so, like, that's you know, that would explain digital spaghetti. And then the rest of the stuff, why start the shows? I mean, say I could say the same exact thing with music. I love dissecting music. I love getting to the core of, like, what makes a song great, what's the sound design, what types of microphones did you use to chord those drums, how did you EQ that snare drum so it sounds so slamming. Like, I love digging in and and learning about that stuff. And so, you know, honestly, having a show is like an excuse for me to just, like, get nerdy and go real deep with really creative people who I respect. So, yeah, there's, like, you know, probably some, like, strategic reasons, and then there's some, like, of the real reasons, which is just really fucking fun and, like, enjoyable. Sorry. I just swore. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? No. That's fine. Yeah. I'll reduce the f bombs as much as No. You're good. You're good. I love that. And I love that it I love when work feels fun, like it's a win win for you and it's helpful for for your business, that's amazing. So we're talking about podcasts, and I think that the sort of definition of podcast has changed a lot over the past five to ten years. Would you consider digital spaghetti or dead box podcasts? Yeah. It's it's a good question, and I think they basically are. And I'm also not super worried about if it's a podcast or not. Honestly, these, like, things in our minds, they evolve so much over time, and we have words for them, and then the word changes, and then it means something else. And then the podcasting format changes. And now podcasting is, like, I don't know, like, ten years ago, podcasting meant audio only. And now, like, you can have a, like, a talk show that's a podcast that's primarily on YouTube, and people are calling that a podcast. So it's it's evolving so quickly and culture is evolving so quickly that I'm not even sure I'd I'd worry too much about whether or not it's a podcast. I think the more important question is how do people, how do people consume, for lack of a better word, this thing that I've made? Like, can they listen to it in a car on their phone, without watching it? And is it, you know, thirty to sixty minutes? Well, then that tells you something about the show and how to produce it and what types of episodes to make and what sorts of things to talk about and how to structure it, and how to build a business around it. Right? Like, if that is how people are listening to it, then, like, whether or not it is a podcast or is not a podcast or is a vodcast or a sort of a podcast, like, it helps you figure out, okay, what do I do next? And, like, if you know, for example, that, like, you're uploading to YouTube, but most of your audience is actually just listening in the car, then, like, I'm gonna talk less about visual things or I'm gonna not say, like, hey. You can click on the link in the screen or in the more info because I know that they're not doing that. They're driving. So, it just kinda helps you, like, figure out, okay. How do I run this and make it work best, for my for my audience? A hundred percent. And we'll talk about this a little bit more, but I feel like there's a lot for, marketers, ad sales folks to learn from that mentality of there's a lot of, like, segmentation and how you buy and what types of ads and all those things specific to podcasts. So I feel like there's a lot to learn from thinking about the user versus putting it into a box of of the label. There's actually a great question from Keith right now in the, in the chat around this, which is, do you think that pod video podcast content is where the entire industry is really going or just, put it on everything, meaning all platforms? I mean, I'd love to hear what you think about this, Lauren. But, honestly, I think one of the reasons that this is happening, that that video podcasting is becoming a thing, there's probably two reasons. One, there is no, like, canonical place where podcast can be discovered. Like, nobody has no company has, like, won that category. If you're if you're wondering, like, where do I discover, like, twenty minute videos or, like, how to's, that's YouTube. Like, they won. But, like, where do I discover podcasts? It's kinda like there's not like a single place. And so what's happening is creators are using YouTube to solve that problem. Like, YouTube has a discovery algorithm. Creators who make podcasts want to be discovered, and so they're uploading their podcast to YouTube. That has exploded over the last couple years and voila. Now we have podcasts on YouTube, and it's creating this culture of video podcasting. So, you know, I like, is that gonna stop? I don't see that stopping. I don't think every podcast will have a video component, but I think a lot of chat shows will have video components. And my guess is a lot of the narrative shows won't have video components because the narrative shows are really hard to produce. And if you were to try and build a video around the narrative, that's, like, a ton of work. Versus a chat show, that's just gonna be setting up cameras and letting people talk and uploading it to YouTube and then getting the advantage of their discovery engine. Yeah. And I think even beyond YouTube, you know, you have TikTok, you have Instagram reels, YouTube shorts. And it's almost, I would say, like to even double down on what you said, it's almost impossible to have your podcast discovered now with the volume of podcasts being created and this influx of creators making more and more podcasts, without having a a broader social presence and that requires video. So I don't see it going back, and I actually think that the podcast industry has a lot of room to sort of catch up to where creators are. The other reason I think it's not going anywhere is because there is a new form of discovery that's really taken hold over the last three years, and it's short form video clips that are thirty to sixty seconds. And if you don't have video associated with your chat podcast, you can't really take advantage of TikTok, Instagram reels, YouTube shorts. And so a lot of podcasters are thinking like, gosh. If all we do is set up video cameras, then we can hire a short form editor to chop it into little thirty second segments. And if we get a million views on TikTok, people hear about our new podcast, and that drives listenership sort of at the top of the funnel. It drives folks to find and discover the podcast there. So, yeah, I just feel like there's too many advantages of video being attached to a podcast for it to go away. I think it's probably gonna grow rather than shrink. Yes. Absolutely. Before we jump into the podcast landscape and get a little deeper in this conversation, I love I I've noticed that the majority of Patreon, creators that I follow are podcast excuse me, podcasts. Why do you think podcasts are so why do you think it's such a good fit for Patreon? Patreon works best. So Patreon is like we I know you you called it a a a membership platform, and that's kinda how we got started. But what we've realized is that it's actually way more than membership over the last couple years. Like, now we have commerce. We have community tools. We have chats. We have, video. We have podcasting and, you know, we we have all of this infrastructure. And what we really are is a true fan platform. Like, we're a we're a platform for creators and their true fans to build community and to build businesses. Like, that's really what it is at its core. And who has true fans? Podcasters have true fans because you spend an hour with these people a week listening to the depths of their mind and reasoning and logic and emotions, and you just build a tremendous sense of closeness with these people as you as you wade in their world. And so, like, Patreon works amazing for that. Like, if you have true fans, even if not like all your fans are true fans, which is that's not how it works for any creator. But, like, if you're a YouTuber and, you know, five percent of your audience is, like, crazy about you and they love you, Patreon works amazing for that because those people then convert. They get your, you know, your extra episode. They get the behind the scenes chat. They get to sort of meet other fans who, you know, love you the same. And and Patreon ends up working really well for that. So, like, for any creator who who has, like, that, you know, five percent of their fans who are, like, super psyched about their work, Patreon works really well, and that's especially true with podcasters. Yeah. Can confirm, and couldn't agree more. Okay. Let's jump into the podcast landscape. I'm gonna start with, like, a very broad question. Can you just give me sort of a lay of the land of how you see the podcast industry right now? Yes. And and maybe before I even do that, Lauren, there's a, another great question. Sorry. I'm trying to, like Oh, yeah. Jump in. Jump in. There's a there's a great question from Olivia. As the maker of a highly produced podcast, I'm definitely feeling the hurt in trying to find a video strategy that's sustainable for us to make and and interesting to the audience. And I just think that's such a great that's, like, that's such a hard thing, and it's such it's such a great example of, like, what a lot of podcast creators, I think, are struggling with now, which is, like, they're seeing, like, YouTubers basically start a chat show where you're just, like, talking. And it, like, literally takes you an hour to make an hour long podcast. And and then you, like, put it out, and it can reach millions of people. And the video is, like, super easy to make for that versus, like, podcasters who've been investing in these, like, narrative podcasts where they have music and then they have these segments that are very produced and then there's, like, a script read and, like, like, something like a radio lab, you know, or or, I mean, that's an older podcast, but you know what I mean. Like, that's a that type of podcast there's a wonderful podcast that I listen to, called, the fall of civilizations podcast, which is this incredibly well researched, like, hyper produced podcast about like, that tracks, like, entire civilizations over the course of their lifetime. Like, what does that podcast do for video? And so, yeah, one way I I mean, take it or leave it as a strategy. But for for those creators, if I if that were me, if I had a super highly produced podcast, like, I think what I would start with is forget about making a video for the whole thing. Don't worry about that. Upload the audio to YouTube with a title card of your of your, podcast. Just like get those out there, and they will enter the discovery ecosystem. And YouTube will send them to people who listen to podcasts. Like, YouTube will find those people, and you might get some listeners from that. Then the second thing I would do is I would focus on finding, great thirty to sixty second clips of my podcast or editing thirty to six thirty to sixty second clips of my podcast. And I would make compelling short form clips from that that articulate one of the key ideas from your longer form narrative in a in a small, thirty to sixty second clip. And I'd make that a really nice video, and I'd start uploading those to TikTok. I'd probably if you can afford it, hire a producer to do that workflow. Test it, see if it works. If it does, then maybe bring in a a short form producer who's actually, you know, helping you make those regularly, and and and test those. That's a that's, like, the quickest path in to, like, creating little video clips that can sort of enter the discovery ecosystem and help you experiment with and learn, from, from using video for your podcast. The one additional thing I'd add too is if it is, like, an essential goal or, like, something that you wanna work towards of having video for the full podcast, some of the people that I see do this the best are the, like, almost documentary style, YouTubers. So, like, Choopel, CHUPPL, Johnny Harris. Like, they do such an incredible job of telling a really narrative story. They use some b roll. They shoot their own footage. There's talking head part parts, but, they're able to put out somewhere between two to four of those a month, and still have a lot of research and and teams of people doing it. So I think that's such a cool, model and maybe something to look at as you're building out your podcast and trying to sort of get to that goal eventually. That is such a great call out. I love that because, yeah, there's a whole group of YouTubers who, like, what they do is they articulate ideas. And this category, sometimes some people call it video essays, but that's kind of a podcast. Yeah. Like, a video essay is kinda like a video version of a podcast or like a like, I can imagine Fall of Civilizations being a video essay. And so I would if yeah. For Olivia, go check out, like, great video essay creators. There's an amazing video essay that I love by Adam Westbrook, and it's about, it's called painting in the dark. It's an amazing video essay. Thomas Flight is another YouTuber that does these amazing, like, movie reviews. And, god, he's so he's so good. There's other video essayists who are not they don't call themselves video essayists, but, like, it's kind they start with a script and then they fill in the video. Folks like that are like, Van Nystatt. I think his things are, like, heavily scripted, and then he kind of shoots at the end. It's like an afterthought. The shooting is an afterthought. So, yeah, look look for video essayists and see how they create video. I think that could be inspiring for you, Olivia. Absolutely. Before I get into my questions too, because I I'm looking at the chat. What about AI? I feel like that's a that's a topic we keep getting, on. Like, I feel like that could be an interesting thing to pull in as you're trying to figure out how to, research deeper topics or think about planning, for podcast. Any any tips there? Totally. There's so many AI tools that I think are actually quite useful. The one the category of tools that I don't really find useful are, like, we're gonna do the whole thing for you. We're gonna make you a song start to finish. We're gonna make you a podcast start to finish. I'm like, they're always bad, and they don't sound good, and they don't it's like they're just not it's not good enough yet. Like, AI is just not as good as a creative person yet. And I I don't like those tools. I don't I don't find them used you know, useful. I do find ChatGPT to be very useful for, like, helping me refine an idea or, like, or find five other ways to say this sentence because I haven't found the right word yet. And then it's really good at reflecting that back to me and, like, giving me other words. It can also be there are some, like, music tools like, Simplant, is a AI tool that I love. Machine learning AI, whatever you wanna call it. Like, you can plop in a a sample of, like, a sound that you like, and then it'll create a virtual instrument, using an FM synthesizer modeled after that sound, it's like it's incredible. It's a really amazing tool. But I prefer those types of tools where they're tools that, like, enhance my creativity as opposed to, like, replacing my creativity, which I think is is bogus. So so, yeah, that's the that's the AI stuff that I love. And maybe, like, for for creators, I know there's a lot of, like, controversy around a lot of, like, the image generation and video generation tools because they've sort of, you know, without permission, scraped media from a lot of creative people, and then not paid those people for it, which is like such a classic tech move. It was like, we're gonna use all this stuff and do not pay anybody. And, here's our new product, which is so yeah. That's like that can't be how we do it. That can't be how AI comes into existence. Trust me. You're preaching to the choir over here. Yeah. For sure. So I hope that gets fixed, and, I'm sure it's going to, actually. I'm very confident that, like, peep the people, governments, like, tool like, we won't stand for that. We you can't. So, like, that will be addressed in the coming years. Just like it was addressed with YouTube, right, with copyright eclipse. But if we get past that for a second and think about the utility, like, I do think there is utility in some of these, like, image generation and video generation tools. And so, you know, for, like, you know, if you need a, you know, something that you can't that you're trying to dream up and you need to, like, visualize it somehow. Like, I remember I was making a video a music video where I wanted I wanted to, like, musicians playing on a wood platform sitting above the clouds. And it's like, alright. I like, that doesn't exist anywhere. Like, I have to, like, I have to make that. And so I used, you know, mid journey to, like, help me visualize what this would look like as I was, like, building those storyboards. And I think that's a great use of AI to sort of help you, you know, figure out, like, what's in your head and articulate that and communicate that to other people. Awesome. Okay. I wanna talk a little bit about ads in podcast because I think, you know, hopefully, there are, a lot of folks on the are listening in who are part of brands interested in marketing on podcasts. And so I I'm gonna read a little quote from a survey from ACAS, which is that podcast advertising improves overall campaign effectiveness twenty one to forty percent. And it's particularly host read ads or baked in ads, which are often cited as, like, not only do people not mind listening to them, but they find them incredibly helpful and relevant, which is really cool and you don't often hear that type of language around ads in general. What do you think it is about podcast ads and particularly, like, host read ads, and any sort of tips for folks on the call who are creators, on how to make them even more effective? I'm probably the wrong person to talk to about ads. Yeah. That's fair. I I mean, I do think, I do think it's like it works for creators and is a good, you know, can be, like, a good source of revenue for creators. And I don't wanna, like, stick my nose up at ads. Like, a lot of creative people you know, ads are, like, you know, a good portion of their business. And so I think it's important to, like, to ask those sorts of questions and talk about that and figure out how that can be better for creators. So, I I do yeah. I mean, I I think the reason it probably works is because the audience has a lot of trust in the creator. Yep. And so when the host says something, people listen. And it is that trust. It is that, like, that, like, cornerstone of a relationship between the creator and the audience that makes it work. That's, like, a beautiful important thing, and I think, like, creators have responsibility and the companies have responsibility to, like, not abuse that. You know? So maybe the main thing I would say for creators is, like, if you're gonna do that, like, do it for things that you believe in. Like, do it for things that you're excited about. And don't do it for things that you're not excited about, even if they can bring in a lot of revenue. You know, like, Pomplamoose has turned down a lot of brand deals in the past because we were like, this isn't a company that we wanna, like, endorse or support or, like, work with. And so it would have been great money, but, like, we have an audience and we care about our relationship with this audience. And we also just from, like, our own standpoint, we wanna, like, say things that we agree with and not have to sort of, you know, we wanna be true. We wanna be real. And so, and so we try to do that. So I would say for hosts and for creators, and for brands, Like, find find the right partnership. Find the right people where it's values aligned and where you agree with what the brand is selling, you agree with who the creator is, and then the rest is gravy. Then, like, when you have that real partnership, the rest kinda unfolds very naturally, and I think it will convert amazingly well with the audience. Yeah. I was I was gonna ask you, what podcast marketers and ad sales networks could learn from other, marketing teams because I've noticed, you know, working in both podcast and influencer marketing, the way that they handle things is so different. A lot of influencer marketers, not all, but a lot more, tend to really trust the creator process and put like a lot more creative control in the hands of creators. They're really invested in making sure that the influencers or creators that they're partnering with are either fans of the brand or it's very relevant. And I find that the podcast ad sales networks that I've worked with tend to be a lot more, like, for lack of a better word, I would say like old school about, about podcast ads. And it it's more of just, like, they bought this space, like, more like a commercial fit. And so I I think you've sort of answered the question, which is like, what can, podcast ads people learn from other industries? And I think a lot of that is just trusting creators processes and really finding a a content market fit for, for your brand with the right creators versus just ones that hit, like, maybe a basic demo information. Yeah. My my tendency here, which is my own personal bias, is that, like, creators know how to talk to their audience. They know what resonates with their audience. They know how to pitch something, how to explain something to their audience. They know who their audience is. That's why they have an audience because they're really good at talking to that audience. And often, brands have a thing that they want to say, but they also have a way that they want it to be said. And they try to get the creator to say it in that way. But what the creator knows that they don't is like, that's not gonna resonate with my audience. Like, it's actually gonna burn trust in your brand, and it's gonna burn my audience's trust in me because they're gonna hear me saying shit that I don't say. Yep. And and that is unfortunate. And that's yeah. So, I mean, that's also why I think the way like, the the most important thing here is, like, find the real partnership. Find the creator who where it works naturally, where you don't have to micromanage their script and their tone of voice and ask them to do twenty different takes. Like, find the creator where it comes out and it's mostly natural natural. I mean, Alan is saying it in the chat here. As a creator, you have to be true and authentic to your brand yourself. Your audience will follow. Yep. I think a lot of brands don't realize that, and they're trying to get what's called message pull through. Mhmm. Which is where the thing that they want to be said in the way that they want it to be said pulls through in the medium that is saying it. And I think you sacrifice trust and authenticity when you push too hard on message pull through. That's my own that's my own read. I realize that's a bias and because probably a million marketing people out there who would yell at me for saying that, but, like, I just feel like it makes more sense. I mean, I've worked in performance marketing for a long time, and I did a talk at South by in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two that was called, brands and creators how to build trust. And it was literally all with with a bunch of creators. It was literally all about that exact sentiment of, you know, trying to not get in the way of how a creator can communicate your message to their audience in a way that's authentic. So, I couldn't agree more and I I do now working on both sides of things, like, you definitely see brands sort of getting their own way, and getting too stuck on just like language details, like all of those things. And it definitely does impact performance. Totally. Yeah. Okay. So we've been seeing more and more creators and influencers get into making podcasts. And I I kind of love that. I love how much representation there is, especially with, creators from diverse backgrounds who are now, you know, I think realizing that the barrier to entry for making a podcast is not incredibly high, or doesn't have to be, can be. What do you think about this trend? Do you think it's gonna grow or stagnate? Do you think that we'll hit sort of a sticking point at any point? I think we're at the very beginning. Sometimes I talk to a lot of people getting into podcasts who are who are like, I miss the podcasting wave. Like, there's already it were it's already flooded. I could not disagree more with that. I mean, if you just look at the kind of state of the industry right now, Nielsen just released new numbers on this. Two thirds of all, like, listening time, at least brand supported listening time, is terrestrial radio. Two thirds of listening time. Like, all of that is gonna be replaced by podcasts. Like, Tresor Radio is on the decline. Podcasting is on the incline. So, like, there's about to be an explosion of new podcasts over the next ten, twenty, thirty years. Right now, podcasting is only twenty percent of listening time, at least ad supported listening time. So, like, the headroom for podcasting innings of podcasting being a medium. And innings of podcasting being a medium. And so anybody that kinda feels like, ugh, I missed the wave. I missed my chance. You're crazy. You're crazy. This is this, like, it this is the time to get into it. I just it kinda makes me it's kinda crazy that I that people feel that way. So and then, you know, there's other huge advantages to it. Like, people right now I think, like, you know, you mentioned celebrities getting into podcasting. I think what celebrities are realizing is, like, I don't have a way to reliably communicate with my audience. There's a bunch of people out there who like me, and they don't know who I am. They don't know what my life is like, and they don't know what I'm working on. They don't know that I just launched this new company and that I just and they realize that a podcast is like a platform. It's like a thing that you can do, to, like, reach your people, every week. And, and that's not going anywhere either. Like, people are gonna get more excited about that, not, you know, not less excited about that. So, yeah. I mean, I think there's just too many trends that are that are kind of, pointed in the direction right now of of podcasting growing. Not to mention, like, companies like YouTube and Spotify who are, you know, pouring billions of dollars of investment into, you know, making it work. So, like, it's yeah. This is the early innings. There's the this is the best time to get into it. Yeah. I am very excited, by everything you just said and and agree, and, one day hope to have the call her daddy money, you know, that that Spotify is pouring out. I saw this question in the chat from Thomas, and I think it's a good build on what I just asked, which is what is your opinion on branded podcasts, podcast as a brand? And, like, having conversations about the product, will it feel too much like an ad? Is there sort of a way around that to have a genuine conversation? Yeah. So digital spaghetti, which is my podcast produced and created by Patreon, is a branded podcast. It's financed and run by the Patreon team. It's not called the Patreon podcast because, like, who's gonna listen to that? Like, that's not what good brand is. Brand is, like, reaching people that could one day use your product and building relationships with them at scale. Like, that's what that is. The more you try to get them to use your product, the less interested they're gonna be in listening to your podcast. I think a great branded podcast is one that doesn't focus on value capture, but focuses on value creation. What can we create? What what information or education or storytelling can we create that is useful to the audience who would also like our product one day eventually maybe? And let's reach those people by giving them value. Let's focus on the gift, not the capture of value. This isn't like we don't measure digital spaghetti and how much revenue it generates. That'd be crazy. We measure digital spaghetti, like, are we reaching the people who might one day use Patreon? So I love the idea of quote I love the idea, in theory, the concept of branded podcast. I just think most people suck at making them and making them valuable in a way that actually resonates with an audience. And and that's because too much of it is spent on trying to get something from your listeners as opposed to trying to improve their lives. I love that, and agree so much. I am going to actually skip our third topic and jump right into our fourth topic, which is the future of podcasting. So I wanna give a little bit more time for Q and A. And I first wanna ask you, what are some of the gaps and opportunities in podcasting right now that you want to see filled? A couple things. I think there's right now, there's no, like, place for podcast community. And that's one thing that Patreon is really, like, focused on and trying to build. And we now have some podcasting communities where there's, like, a lot of discussion and excitement and, like, people are getting a lot of value from being a member of that community. Like, we got a podcast called, the girls bathroom where, like, on the show, they, like, talk the premise of the show is, like, they talk about the things that you talk about in the girls bathroom. Oh, yeah. And and it's really cool. It's like stuff you don't you're not used to hearing on air. You know? It's like it's it is, more detailed, more specific, more vulnerable than what you would normally get. And their chat on Patreon is exactly that too. It's like people asking for advice. Like, I just got this phone call from this guy. We met last night. Here's what he said. I thought the voice mails was, like, a little weird. I don't know if I wanna go on a date with him. What do y'all think? And then they, like, talk about it together. So it's like there's, like, actual community. There's, like, community support and enthusiasm and help, like, fan to fan. And I I yeah. There's not that doesn't exist for a podcast right now. I guess it kinda does in, like, the comment section on YouTube, but it's not really persistent between podcasts because the comments are attached to an individual podcast. So it feels less like a, like, ongoing community. And I think I I think that's, like, a big hole and something that's really important for podcast right now. K. Second thing I think we're gonna see and that we're already seeing is, like, one of the big trends is, like, a separation online between freemium and premium. When the web launched, you know, twenty five, thirty years ago to the public, the sort of early companies that won were like, everything is free. The Internet is free. Art is free. Artists are free. We don't pay artists anymore. We just put all of their work on the Internet for free for everyone to enjoy. And then, like, over the last twenty years, artists were like, that doesn't work for me. Like, I need to build a business so I can keep making art. Like, I have a you know, I have to have to pay rent too, and I have need to pay for groceries too. And so, so, you know, what ended up happening is, like, over the last twenty years, I think society is is watching this trend unfold, which is like everything on the Internet used to be free. And now artists, publishers, creators are realizing, actually, a portion of our offering should be a premium offering. And if you just follow anybody online, you're seeing this. New York Times is doing this. The Guardian is doing this. You know, creators are doing this. Disney just created Disney plus. Like, it's the same thing. Right? There's, like, a portion of the offering that's free, and there's a portion of the offering that's behind the paywall. And, like, that is now almost completely normalized in society. And so I think we're gonna see more creators realize that, like, that is a critical piece of how I need to actually build a business and an audience in a sustainable way. It'll take people it'll take humanity another decade, I think, to fully get out of the everything should be free land. But it's the it's like we're moving very quickly in that direction. And then, yeah, if there's another trend, you know, I think probably creators have sort of thought about their audience as one thing and audiences are segmented. And I think that will start to become part of how creators understand their businesses. Here's what I mean by that. At the top of the funnel, you have discovery. This is like how people find your work. They're sort of like they they don't even know of you yet, and you need to reach them. Then in the middle, you have, like, casual fans. Those are fans that have, like, seen a couple short form clips of your podcast. They know who you are. You know, they realize, oh, yeah. I heard that podcast about fall civilizations once. That sounded cool. Those are, like, casual fans. They've heard of you. Then the next segment of your audience is, like, fans. They, like, listen to your podcast every week. And then the next set is your superfans. That's like people who like, you know, they go to your show and they download the course and they, follow you on all socials and they, you know, know everything that you're doing and launching. They buy tickets, You know, they buy your merch. They wear your hat out. Like, that's your true fans, your real fans, your super fans. And I think, one trend that we're now starting to see, Patreon is obviously seeing this because we're we're a company for that group of people. But, you know, we've now got three hundred thousand creators who are building true fan communities and launching new businesses with those true fans too. Right? So they gather those true fans on Patreon. They have a community with those true fans, and then they launch a course offering or then they, like, have a sample pack that they're selling to their audience or then they go on tour and they make tickets available to that crew crew first. And I think we're gonna start to see creators realize like, it's not just fans in a big blob. My audience is segmented, and this portion of my fans, my true fans, is a really valuable portion of my fans because they represent a huge portion of my community and my business. I love that. And I it's almost like thinking about, like, an audience funnel. Like, how do you move people down that fandom? But I think a lot of it is investing in your true fans and making sure that you're, you know, spending time and energy and making sure you're making content that that feels right for them. So I love that. I also I wanted to talk about so there was this feeling of, like, it's too late to jump into podcasts and and, you know, if anything, I think it's early. But as more and more creators make podcasts, as brands make podcasts, as news outlets and media outlets make podcasts, what bites would you give for, folks starting out on how to build an audience and maintain an audience as you're as you're growing? The number one thing, is make something great. Make something that you believe in. Make something that you want to listen to. Make something that you're fired up to make, that you love making and you love listening back. Like, ideally, you finish the podcast and you, like, listen to it three or four times by yourself in your car ride just because you like it that much. Like, you should love the thing that you make. Not because you, like, wanna, like, leave feedback on it or about it, but just because you let you enjoy the product that you're putting out into the world. I think that's so important. Everything else is downstream of that strategy and direct to fan and like, oh, do I have a marketing strategy to do short form clips and blah blah? Like, if you don't have the kernel, the core of making a thing from your heart that lights you up, then it's probably not gonna light other people up too. So making something that you're proud of, that you believe in, that's super high craft, that you can't help but, like, keep listening to and loving, that's, like, number one. The rest of it can can come later. And then I think that, like, the once you have that, then, like, figure out what's the video portion of the strategy. Like, you know, figure out, like, how to make short form clips out out of it. Like, get those onto TikTok. Don't make one and post it. Make a hundred. Make a hundred clips, short form clips, and post them. Like, just make it a habit or, like, enlist some friends or, like, hire somebody or, like, figure out how to make a hundred clips and get them out there. Because the way TikTok works, one of them gets a million views and the next five get eight views. And then, like, you might not get another million views for another ten clips, but, like, there's probably one down there that's, like, a really good clip. And as good as you think you are at knowing which one is gonna hit, you're not. I've been uploading videos for twenty years to the Internet. I am always surprised, always at which ones hit and which ones don't. I suck at guessing which things I make are gonna resonate with masses of people. I've uploaded probably two thousand videos. I mean, I'm not kidding. Probably more than that. Maybe three thousand videos? I mean, thousands of clips and videos, long form, short form to the Internet. I still don't know what's gonna hit and why. So upload a lot of clips and see which ones stick and which don't. That's a big piece of it. Like, figure out the discovery strategy. And then the third thing I would offer is, like, a lot of creators, I think, misuse the word community. We sort of all the platforms talk about building community. But I think a lot of creators actually are building an audience, not a community. And there's a difference between an audience and a community. An audience is like a one way transfer of information. They receive the story and then they leave and they're done. An audience is like when you go to a show and you and you see the the act and then the act leaves afterwards, and then you leave and then you all go to your back to your homes, that's an audience. It's like, I was there, I got the thing, I'm gone. That's not a community. The platforms call it community, creators call it community, but that's not what a community is. Like, building a real community is a place where fans are interacting with each other and learning from each other and getting value from each other as much as they're getting value from the creator. Like, communities are where there's, like, support and shared interest and shared passion. Communities are where there's a two way dialogue between the creator and the fans. The creator says something to the fans. The fans say things back. The creator then hears that and says something new to the fans. And that sort of dialogue persists and evolves and people learn about each other. You know, they learn about culture and values and, like, that's what a community is. And there's actually very few creators who, like, deeply invest in building a community versus building an audience. And so I would I would challenge creators to, like, think about, like, how can I build, like, an actual community that is actually valuable, to to my, you know, to the people who are enjoying my show rather than just thinking of it as, like, a one way conversation? I always ask this question. I feel like you've left us with so many great lessons or or things to take away from this. But if you could, make people remember one thing from today, what would it be? You know, I think it's probably this concept of true fans. I think that's probably the most important lesson for me as a creator was thinking that it's all about millions and billions and more and acquisition, and I need to keep getting views and blob more views, and I want a million views. Like, the Internet is set up to to train us as artists to follow that blind path to nowhere, honestly. Like the whole Internet is architected. All the dashboards that we see. It's all about new views, new acquisition, new subscribers, new, new, new, more, more, more. And what it ignores is that, like, that's not actually how real businesses work. They don't just focus on more and more. They focus on retention. They focus on better, better, better. They focus on strength of connection, not just volume of connections. And, like, that's what that like, it's a different set of activities that a creator can do to cultivate a true fandom with their true fans, with those five percent of people who are, like, their people. That's a different set of activities than, like, more, more, more, go out, get the next million views. And and there's a wonderful, essay by a futurist named Kevin Kelly. He founded a company called Wired, the the publisher. And, Kevin says that, like, in the day and age of the Internet, you don't need a million fans to build a business. You need and the essay is called a thousand true fans because his thesis is if you have a thousand true fans who are willing to pay you a hundred dollars a year, like, they ten bucks a month or, like, they go to, like, two shows a year, they buy some merch, like, a a thousand fans who will pay you a hundred dollars a month, that's a hundred grand a year as a creator building a business with your thousand true fans. So, like, having that concept of these are my people, this is my core audience, and I'm gonna cultivate that core audience is is a very different mindset than we sort of have on other platforms on, you know, and and, in our in our day to day creativity and the incentive structures that we see from YouTube and Spotify and everything else. And so I would just encourage creators to think about that true fandom. Think about finding those people, think about cultivating that true fandom. And, and I think a lot is you know, comes from that. Amazing. Where can folks follow and find you? So, all over. If you just Google my name, you'll find me everywhere. Most of the stuff that I sort of say to the world on a regular basis comes out on my Instagram, which is, just Jack Conte on Instagram. And then I have a YouTube channel called Jack Conte extras where I'm, you know, uploading new big announcements and stuff like that. And then you can look up Digital Spaghetti for my show on, you know, how creators tell compelling stories. And then if you're interested in music, you can follow my show, Dead Wax, where we dissect music and talk about what makes it great. And then you can also follow Pamplemousse, which is my band, and Scary Pockets, which is my funk band. And, you know, we're all online all the time. I gotta tell you, I love, Digital Spaghetti. A lot of the partners that we have or Storyblocks people we work with have been on the show, and it's just fun to hear more about their creative process, since we were often, like, a part of it. But, like, hearing the whole thing has just been such a cool, experience for me as, like, a marketer of a tool that is involved in a lot of creators' processes. So thank you for making incredible content, and thank you for joining us today. I learned a lot. I hope the audience did. Before we end, quickly, I'm going to plug our next webinar, which is about building in house video teams, something I think Jack knows, very well. We've started this whole conversation about, learning how to build teams. So if you want to dig in a little bit more there, join us September thirteenth, and you can head to storyblocks dot com slash resources for this, on demand or any of our previous webinars. We have ones around AI and your video process. We have ones, around generative AI, around, you know, all types of video production, content. So please, head over there. And, again, Jack, thank you so much for today. Yeah. This was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. Such great questions and, yeah, I really appreciate your taking the time. And, yeah, thanks everybody for listening too. Thanks, all.
